Number of posts: 664 Age: 58 Year came to Christ: 1960 Registration date: 2010-12-17
Subject: Re: How much of your beliefs are Biblical? Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:51 pm
Myles, This topic is one of my hobby horses, I would like to add How much of our Belief system/doctrine is based on What mom,dad,preacher,book, expert, the church, etc. taught us and how much is based upon what God has led us to, by our personal walk and study in the Holy Spirit. The scripture says that "The Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth" God does not intend for man to be our teacher only a tool that he can use.
God is love Scott
_________________ A hero does what’s right even if it costs them everything!!!
Subject: Re: How much of your beliefs are Biblical? Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:12 pm
Hi there. This is my first reply to the topics, and this particular topic is something I have also been wrestling with. I struggle between psychology and faith quite a bit, and relating to this topic is the following example: Some people, and those would be significant leaders in a church, would argue that people...saved, Christian people, don't really change. Because psychology says that "you can't teach an old dog new tricks"...and that "once someone shows you who they are, believe them"... But the Word is quite clear that we are a new creation, growing up in Christ from babies and pure spiritual milk, to maturity in Christ and the deeper mysteries of God. Also that we will grow from glory to glory...Is this not in contrast to the above psychological ideas? This is confusing...because if the Holy Spirit is leading you to believe in His saving power and work to bring change, restoration, new life and freedom from old bondages and pain, leading us into maturity in Christ, surely that is "God teaching us broken people His new ways and healing us into new ways of being and relating"? (God can teach old dogs new tricks because with Him nothing is impossible, right? And shouldn't we be believing that?) And if "someone shows you who they are (and it might not be as pleasant as you thought)", we shouldn't just leave it at that and walk away, but come alongside each other, accepting each other and loving them as Christ accepts us and loves us? I don't know...is this right? Yet I truly believe that if we don't believe that people, and here I mean Christians, or people submitted to and walking with the Holy Spirit, can change, then we are denying or not believing in the power of the Gospel. I speak from experience of how God has changed and healed me. And key people in my life believed in me, loved and accepted me while I was still so broken and just kept loving me. So I just want to say thank You Heavenly Father for not giving up on me when conventional ideas would have. And that I believe that people can change. I am an example. Leilani
Number of posts: 664 Age: 58 Year came to Christ: 1960 Registration date: 2010-12-17
Subject: Re: How much of your beliefs are Biblical? Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:12 pm
Leilani, Great post, I am glad you joined in. I want to talk about your quote.
"You can't teach an old dog new tricks"...and that "once someone shows you who they are, believe them"...
I am 58 years old and am constantly being “transformed by the renewing of my mind” I plan of continuing to change into the image of Christ until the day I die.
The devil is a liar and he tells lies in all kinds of ways, we must continually refuse to believe his lies no matter where they come from. I had more than 160 delinquent teens in my home over a period of 25 years. Some psychology will tell you that “kids are supposed to rebel” That is a lie against the word of God. If I had believed that lie I would have not been successful with the kids we worked with and my life would have been wasted. I have studied most major theories of Psychology and Sociology. I can tell you that the things that work are Biblical and the things that don’t work are not. For instance reality therapy works, but the main principal is that we are responsible for our behavior, which is what the bible says so why do we need reality therapy. The same could be said for behavioral modification, and many other things. Let me give you another good psychology principal that is “Cognitive dissidence” Simply stated that is when our behavior conflicts with our belief; we tend to Minimize, deny, and blame. I have been recently involved in a problem that this concept describes perfectly. This is true and useful in figuring out what is going on in us and in others sometimes, but does it really tell us anything that is not in the bible or at least addressed by the principals of scripture. I don’t think that it says anything that cannot be adequately addressed by and honest open look at who we are in Christ and any sin that needs dealt with. I think it is simply stated in a couple of my favorite scriptures.
Col 2:4 Now this I say lest anyone should deceive you with persuasive words.
Col 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
I would be glad to discuss psychology with you at length if you want.
Don’t receive the lie. Scott
_________________ A hero does what’s right even if it costs them everything!!!
Number of posts: 78 Year came to Christ: August 2008 Registration date: 2011-01-19
Subject: Re: How much of your beliefs are Biblical? Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:58 pm
Leilana,
Some people, and those would be significant leaders in a church, would argue that people...saved, Christian people, don't really change. Because psychology says that "you can't teach an old dog new tricks"...and that "once someone shows you who they are, believe them"...
What these people are saying in effect is "come and share in the life of Jesus Christ because when God lives in you...nothing will happen", that is blaspemy.
There will be no sinners in heaven. A Holy, perfect God does not create anything that is not holy and perfect (sinless); He will not allow anything in His presence that is imperfect or distorted by sin.
Mathew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
This is a terrifying thought, because I know that I am all those things, He would find evidence in my thoughts or actions to convict on all accounts.
The gospel (good news) is found in I John 3:2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."
It reminds me of when Peter was walking on the water, as soon as he took his eyes off Jesus he sank, when we are in heaven we will have nothing to fear because our eyes will be on Jesus and we will be a perfect reflection of him. We have nothing to fear right now as long as our eyes are on Him.
The Bible never talks about changing us it always uses terms like "must be born again", "new creature", "like little children", and "all things are new" because God cannot do anything with us, He has to start over from scratch. Everything we did up until we began being saved by the life of Jesus was a complete and utter waste; everything we do after beginning to be saved that is not completely 100% Him living through us is only fit for the boneyard. When our eyes are on Jesus we are sinless just like him who is always a perfect reflection of his Father. This is just as true today on earth as it will be in heaven. When our eyes are off of him we are not 25% or even 3% perfect we are a total loss and an utter lie about the one who made us in His image.
If you read I Samuel about King Saul, Samuel and King Agag there is a good picture of the flesh (represented by King Agag) and what it is good for. The flesh goes by many names; self, ego, the "ID", the old man, it is the Satanic lie that was believed by Adam and passed on to us, essentially Satan convinces us that we have a life instead of that we must share the life of our savior Jesus. The Holy Spirit will not co-habitate with the flesh and the flesh is only killed at the cross, so I have found that I must always live at the cross.
Number of posts: 510 Age: 39 Year came to Christ: 1980 Registration date: 2011-01-12
Subject: Re: How much of your beliefs are Biblical? Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:22 pm
I just finished reading a book called "radicall" by david Platt that kind of deals with this idea. The subtitle is "taking back your faith from the american dream". It wasn't one of the greatest books I've read but the guys heart is genuine and challenging. He was pretty young and took over a thriving "mega church" in the south. By every count, he had made it in the church world. The book chronicles God's moving on his heart as he realized how much of our church world was built on the american dream and not on the gospel. Bigger, better, more....then how with several meetings with christians around the world how God began to change him and his churches heart for the spread of the gospel. It's an easy read, so if this is a topic that God has placed in your heart, I would recommend it.
Number of posts: 385 Age: 37 Year came to Christ: 1992 Registration date: 2010-12-01
Subject: Re: How much of your beliefs are Biblical? Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:07 pm
Ok this topic will MESS YOU UP!!
I know over the last year as I have studied the bible more, listened to great teachers such as Chan, Driscoll and Piper, I have come to realize that A LOT of our belief system is MADE IN THE USA and not grounded in Jesus.
I know that I am spoiled and take life for granted.
Myles....I could type about this forever but I am going to do as you discussed and meditate on this and allow Jesus to fix me.
Number of posts: 510 Age: 39 Year came to Christ: 1980 Registration date: 2011-01-12
Subject: Questions you shouldn't ask God... Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:30 pm
So I joke with my bandmates at church during prayer request to never ask God for patience....because he then gives you opportunities to practice it! Well I had one of those moments today...I am currently just in one of those seasons where God is asking me to change/grow alot of things...I have my family transitioning into a different stage...I have many decisions to make that are ministry related etc. (Pray for me if you think about it! Lol) So I simply asked God this question today...."GOD...WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME?" He instantly replied as clear as I've ever heard him.....KING ME! What? KING ME.... In other words..make him king. Surrender to his rule...in EVERYTHING! I know this in my head...but it hit me like a ton of 25yr old fruit cakes today!
When a a conquering king wins a battle....he wins the allegiance and the surrender of his subjects. God won the battle over sin and death long ago....but did he have my allegiance? Does he have my unconditional...full...no conditions surrender? Have I really made him KING of everything? King me...hmmm. I'm still chewing on this one. I have been looking on doing a mens group this fall and calling it "All the Kings men"...I guess I better make sure he is MY king before I lead any of his men!
Anyhow, thought I would share some of my journey with you in hopes that it is encouraging and in hopes that if you have anything to add...any advice to give...have traveled this road before....I would humbly accept what you all have to give.
Number of posts: 1873 Age: 38 Year came to Christ: 1986 Registration date: 2007-06-28
Subject: Re: How much of your beliefs are Biblical? Fri Aug 05, 2011 7:45 pm
Leilani wrote:
I struggle between psychology and faith quite a bit
Great scriptures guys! Leilani I have another for you...
Quote:
Proverbs 3:5-7
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
We can not rely on oursleves. God makes very little sense to us; our minds try to fill in the blanks of issues we do not understand...and this is dangerous because we can so easily begin to "re-write God" into an image we understand rather than who is actually is (Exodus 20)
I will flat out say that these people teaching you this are wrong. To understand God...we have to disgard ourselves. The Bible says the Smartest human on Earth is nothing compared to God. We simply cannot understand Him. And, the Bible is also very clear that we are created anew once we recieve the Holy Spirit.
This is a very good example Leilani of exactly what I was saying...world view vs. Godly view!
Number of posts: 664 Age: 58 Year came to Christ: 1960 Registration date: 2010-12-17
Subject: Re: How much of your beliefs are Biblical? Sun Aug 07, 2011 5:42 am
Wow, Myles, What can I say. I have to admit that I will have to sneek up on that prayer, I'm not quite there yet. What a challenge!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is only a couple minutes long. Watch it even if you don't have the courage to pray it.
Alive in him Scott
_________________ A hero does what’s right even if it costs them everything!!!
Number of posts: 28 Age: 59 Year came to Christ: 1965 Registration date: 2011-01-16
Subject: Re: How much of your beliefs are Biblical? Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:20 pm
Wow, what a powerful prayer. How many of us, including me have thought of praying that prayer. We in America have been programmed to want the best and the most of everything. Listening to this was a real wake up call.
Number of posts: 1138 Age: 36 Year came to Christ: 1981 Registration date: 2007-07-09
Subject: Re: How much of your beliefs are Biblical? Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:14 pm
You know, I was kinda thinking along these same thoughts yesterday, as well as the last few months. I guess I would have to say that my biggest thoughts lean toward my motorcycle as well as my Dallas Cowboys. Now I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing to have either one but I have been praying about whether God would have me to do away with either or both.
I was talking with my sister Leah yesterday (When we get together, we mostly talk about God!) when I mentioned these things to her. She quickly informed me that I didn't have to get rid of these things in order for God to be Lord over them. Actually we were just talking about the Cycle but I applied the conversation to both. She mentioned that it is a heart issue and that as long as God is Lord over those areas I was fine. That if God asked me to, I would be ready to let go in a moment's notice.
It really was conformation to me. I had been praying over it and trying not to fall into "poor man's theology" and I just hadn't felt like God wanted me to let go of them... yet. I don't know if he ever will but I have to say that I want to get to the point that even if I lose everything, I will be able to continue in the same spirit that I walk with God today. I think that's the real test... the Abraham test. If God asks you to sacrifice that which is most precious to you, would you do it? Of course that would be my sweet Sadie but after my family and Church... and of course my sweet Jesus... those are the possessions that I hold tightly to.
Also, I have come into a pretty decent amount of money and I wonder what my walk would be like if I was flat broke and had nothing. Anyway... all just thoughts but I definitely feel that it's good to stay grounded and to make sure that we are prepared for WHATEVER and ANYTHING that may come our way. Being a reader, one of my favorite series of books is the Left Behind series. Man do they go through it! While it does seam kinda scary, the one thing I love is the way they all have to come together and band together in Christ... the one thing they all have left and have in common... in order to press on. I guess you could say it seems rather cozy to me. Rather fun!
Okay... I'm rambling a bit... but do you get what I'm saying?
Number of posts: 664 Age: 58 Year came to Christ: 1960 Registration date: 2010-12-17
Subject: Re: How much of your beliefs are Biblical? Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:48 pm
Henry, What I like the most is that you care about it. Most people don't even give their "things" a second thought. I know that it is important for you to please God and If you felt like your bike was too important to you it would be gone. One thing is that I do not think God wants to tell me or anyone else about what he wants for you. God far prefers to tell you about what he wants for you. I believe he will usually only tell someone else to tell you if you won't listen to him. That's a wordy but I think I got it said.
In Him Scott
_________________ A hero does what’s right even if it costs them everything!!!
Number of posts: 1873 Age: 38 Year came to Christ: 1986 Registration date: 2007-06-28
Subject: Re: How much of your beliefs are Biblical? Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:21 am
As far as you bike goes Mo' combine the two! Join that club I sent you the information on, who knows you might even bring new people to the Upper Room! You would have a blast on your bike...and be fellowshipping at the same time!
As far as the advice you received Mo'...I say this out of love ad believe me "self conviction" I truly challenge you to find that advice in the Bible. Because I can not, that is our way of justifying things in our life...and it's not biblical. God doesn't have to ask you to give it up...because as you "Sold Yourself" to him...you were giving up the world, and replacing it with him. He shouldn't have to ask you to give up the world...WE...just should do it. Honestly how can you glorify God by watching the Dallas Cowboys play a game? Believe me I am feeling this as well. I think the very fact that you and I have been asking these questions lately is because as we grow closer to God...the more ROOM the Holy Spirit is needing inside of us...remember brother "More Christ...Less World!"
Number of posts: 1873 Age: 38 Year came to Christ: 1986 Registration date: 2007-06-28
Subject: Re: How much of your beliefs are Biblical? Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:32 pm
Here is something difficult for us to TRULY understand. Do you honestly believe that you "sold yourself" to God when you became a Christian? I think people in the days the Bible was being written understood being sold into slavory so much more than we do today, because to most of us...it is an unthinkable issue. When a person sold themselves into slavory, they understood their wants...no longer mattered. They lived to serve their master. THIS is the deotion Jesus requires of us...and it is something that we only believe half heartedly today.
Quote:
1 Corinthians 6:20
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
There is no debating issues with God...it is "Serve me, or serve the world." I am about to on this topic finish what I began, so if no one responds I will continue posting these thoughts here. Thoughts that show how different our attitude toward things is than God demands. I tell you...it is scary what I have found...and it hurts...
Number of posts: 510 Age: 39 Year came to Christ: 1980 Registration date: 2011-01-12
Subject: Re: How much of your beliefs are Biblical? Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:27 pm
Good stuff, but here is one thing I would like us to consider. Does God allow you to have things, expereince things, simply for the enjoyment of it? I believe he does. While at times following God takes great discipline and sacrifice....sometimes he pours out his goodness for your enjoyment. I think if we are not careful, we can get into a poor gospel...which is no different than a prosperity gospel. I don't believe it's the things you have, it's what you do with what you have. The bible is full of people richly blessed by God in money and possesions. The problem becomes when the gifts that he gave us become in place of him. That is what is mentioned in Romans when it talks about idolatry...worshiping created things rather than creator. But the truth is...we all have created things. I have a house, a motorcycle, a car, a couch, a TV on and on and on....Now compared to many other people..I am rich beyond belief. . I can tell you though....I've walked with the Lord long enough now...that I can point to many of my possesions as things God blessed me with! I can tell you the story of how we got our TV. It is a 900$ that we were not looking for. It had been over 10 yrs since we had purchased a TV...I walked into the store not looking for a TV...the man walked up to me and said "you look like nice people....this TV is already on clearence but if you want it you can take another 30% off of it". Now I see that as something God decided to bless me with and helped me to get something for half of what it is worth that I now enjoy. If it becomes an idol, then God will deal with me on it...but I believe that God gives us things for enjoyment....that's who he is. Following God is not always like being in the military.
Number of posts: 1873 Age: 38 Year came to Christ: 1986 Registration date: 2007-06-28
Subject: Re: How much of your beliefs are Biblical? Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:47 pm
skipp phipps wrote:
The bible is full of people richly blessed by God in money and possesions.
You are right there Skipp, but I challenge you, can you find examples of this in the New Testament? Can you find where Jesus, Paul or the others ever even spoke or used a "sports" or "Theater" reference? Because those things very much did exist back then. It seams to me that they completely ignored them. I will be honest the "poor Mans" gospel you and Mo' have both spoken of...I see allot of that in the Bible. I see allot of giving up everything...money, things...and self throughout the new testament...
I see Jesus and the apostles living as if every second of their lives could be their last...so every second was spent living for God! Now does God let us have fin? Absolutely! Please understand I am not saying that he does not. But I am saying what you do is it for you...or for him? And can you incorporate what you like into what God wants from you?
And as to God is not like being in the military...true...but it is like being a slave to Him...because we did sell ourselves to him...
Believe me Skipp...I am not THERE yet..I have things...I love my TV shows and movies. But what I have been asking myself lately is this; Should I?
Number of posts: 1873 Age: 38 Year came to Christ: 1986 Registration date: 2007-06-28
Subject: Re: How much of your beliefs are Biblical? Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:38 pm
Scott woodring wrote:
how much is based upon what God has led us to, by our personal walk and study in the Holy Spirit. The scripture says that "The Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth"
I missed this question Scott...sorry! As for me, I can say that from the way I was "brought up" and where I am now...are completely opposite! I grew up in the "health & Wealth" movement, and after seperating myself fro, those who taught me this and I began to study and learn on my own...I found the Bible is very much NOT in line with this! In fact I found most of my belief...Un-Biblical! I loved God...but...I did not have a clue who he was! So I very much agree with your statement. IF WE ALLOW HIM, the Holy Spirit will leed us to truth!
Number of posts: 510 Age: 39 Year came to Christ: 1980 Registration date: 2011-01-12
Subject: Re: How much of your beliefs are Biblical? Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:42 pm
I do know that Jesus went to weddings, parties and the like. We don't know much about his life before ministry, but I would be willing to guess that he enjoyed life to some extent. I would be willing to say that he laughed, told jokes, played games etc. His brothers for example, didn't see him as "floating on air" so to speak. So I would say he led a pretty normal life up to the point of ministry.
Also, to suggest that they gave all....means at somepoint they had something. Paul did have a buisness, of tentmaking, presumaly to pay for his expenses. The danger, I believe, is falling into a social justice gospel. Jesus also said, the poor would always be among us. That in itself implies that some would have more, some would have less. I also don't believe that one can simply discount all of the Old Testament since it does show God's principles and patterns.
The book of Luke was also most likely finianced by a wealthy person. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is there any place in scripture where possesions themselves are listed as bad? Or, as I would suggest, it always the LOVE of those possesions that is the problem. I truly believe it's not what you have, but why you have it and what you use it for. Jesus didn't just make wine at the wedding.....he made the best wine EVER! Sin is the problem...God made many good things to be enjoyed before sin....so should we then say, that because of sin...he wants no things in our lives for enjoyment? Let me use one example.....SEX. God did not do away with it because of sin, he simply said how and when it should be enjoyed...but that it should be enjoyed, just the right way. I don't think possesions are a problem, it's why we have them.
Another aspect of this that I think we as Christians fall into all the time is...my legalism should be your legalism. I know I used the L word....but hang with me for a minute. Sometimes, because of our sinful natures..it is better for us to do without something so that it is not a temptation to sin. Having a drink for example, some people could have a beer and never be tempted to sin...others could not have a beer and not be tempted to sin. The mistake we make as Christians then is to say.."well since I can't have a beer, you can't have one either". This is imposing a legalism on someone else for the benefit of ourseleves.
You could also talk about art....music..etc. I enjoy seeing a well done painting, I enjoy listening to music that is creative...I enjoy tasting food that is of good quality and seasoned well. I don't believe we can find a place in scripture that any of those things are a sin....now if I worship them in place of God....they are! I don't believe having a motorcycle is a sin, I don't believe having a house is a sin...PETER had one. He used it...I know that when I ride a motorcycle are some of the times I hear God the clearest. I have nothing else to distract me, no radio to listen to etc. I am often caught up by the bueaty of God's creation that I would never have noticed in a car.
I probably will have more on this later, but....enough for now...lol
Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:17 am
