Good article on the question....I'm sure this had been addressed before on here...but was interested in your all's expereinces and teachings on the subject. Always seems to be a often asked question.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/most-evangelical-leaders-say-tithe-not-required-by-bible-49744/

Henry,

Tithing is a law:

Hebrews 6:5 "...they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is of their brethren..."

The law is obsolete:

Hebrews 6:11 "If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?"

You cannot draw close to God under the law:

Hebrews 6:18 "For there is verily a disannulling (setting aside) of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God."

What was the law for?

Galatians 3:24 "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."

The full context of Hebrews and Galatians fully supports this.

Greg

Greg,

How then should the subject of tithing be approached in light of what you posted?

Below is a link to an atricle that I thought was very informative on the subject of the Law and the gospel.




http://theresurgence.com/2011/04/06/the-law-the-gospel

I must say, I am truly surprised at where this subject has gone. I felt that I was actually in a minority with my views on this subject...

I believe tithing is not a requirement.

(I could argue that why do this and not keep the other tenets. This argument goes a long way with me on a variety of subjects...)

But...(you know it had to be coming, right?) I do believe we should be giving what we have set aside for God. The 'giving' thing seems to always take a monetary note, but it goes so much deeper and I believe this was the true intent of ANY scripture having to do with giving, be it O.T. or N.T.

I used to defend my NOT tithing by saying...DO YOU THINK GOD NEEDS MY MONEY. Pretty rude and short sighted of me. (I ask forgiveness for this!) What God wants though, I think, is ME...all of ME...and in giving, be it time or money or sweat or just a shoulder, I become a part of HIS plan and He blesses me for this.

Giving is also an outward expression of faith. Observe the woman who gave all she had (2 pence (Eng.)). Was this not the ultimate dependance on God to supply her needs? (I'm preaching to myself also if anyone is wondering... )
WD

Interesting things to chew on...I have tithed, and given ocassionally above that for years because it has been my conviction to do so. Although I believe I stop short of saying it's a requirment, I don't have a problem with challenging people that they should have a lifestyle of giving. I have seen it play out in my life time and time and time again...when I've given generously, I've never gone without. My dad used to tell me....I never went broke because of anything I ever gave away....but I have gone broke because of money I spent on me.

Are there instances in the new Testament of Jesus or others keeping the tithe principal?

Also....this kind of goes along with something I've been kicking around in my head. I believe the New Testament scriptures give a picture of God "Inspiring" rather then "requiring" things. We should be Inspired to give well beyond a number....not just merely required to meet a number. make sense?

1 Corinthians 16:1–2
The Collection for the Saints

16 Now concerning the collection for the saints: as I directed the churches of Galatia, so you also are to do. 2 On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come.

This scripture seems to suggest at least regular giving to support the work of the church.

It never ceases to amaze me about the topics you guys start! You are really brave! LOL

The problem as I see it is that we tend to want to keep going back to slavery because when you are a slave, your master dictates everything you do. That is a very comfortable position. When Jesus came and fulfilled the law, our responsibilities changed. We are responsible to go the extra mile and not just do the bare minimum. Most slaves don't do anything that they aren't required to do. If they see something that is amiss; but it isn't their job, they ignore it and go on. Now that we are free, we are supposed to use our freedom to listen to the Holy Spirit on how to act. That includes our how much we give and where we give it to. We are to realize (as Henry's scripture points out) that God gives us everything we have. Some of what He gives us is for ourselves to use and to multiply. Some of what He gives us is to be used for giving where there is need. In I Corinthians, the need was for the poor Jewish believers.

I agree with Scott. So often the concept of tithing is used as a cover for greed. There often seems to be a prevailing attititude of "I'm not giving God one more cent than I have to." In the New Covenant without exception, Jesus expected us to give more, go farther, be more loving, etc. I believe the Old Testament concept is to give required tithes and offerings above that. The New Covenant concept is to give with liberality as there is a need.

Skipp,

I read the article you posted and it was very good! I can't say it any better, but I will reflect a bit.

Malachi 3:8 "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings."

We give to God out of our poverty. God made us for His pleasure and it pleases Him to share. That's why it is impossible to please Him without faith (complete dependence on Him for everything). The law has us try to do it and faith lets God do it. Because God gave us free will we can prevent Him from sharing with us. All the old testament saints were justified by faith: Abel, Abraham, Noah; never does the bible say anyone was made righteous by the law. Through the law God is trying to show us that we are not the source of righteousness, goodness or life only He is (in other words, Satan lied). When I am living under the law (even as a Christian) to the degree that I keep the law I gain self-confidence; to the degree that I fail I become disappointed, depressed and end up feeling sorry for myself (self-pity). In either case I am expecting something from myself, which is the lie of Satan. God doesn't expect anything from us, because we aren't God HE IS. To the dejected, disappointed, failed and humiliated Christian this is GOOD NEWS! To the successful, self-confident Christian this is foolishness.

Psalms 34:18 "The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit."

Greg

Jesus mentions it in Matt and luke, this is probably the same incident.

Mat 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.


Luk 11:42 "But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

In these scriptures Jesus is speaking to Jews who were still under law.!!!!!!!!!!

The other time it is mentioned is in Heb and it is a historical reference not a command. This is a reference to the tithe that Abraham brought to Melchisedec. This passage should be studied in context. These are the only mention of tithing in the new testament.

Heb 7:5-10 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises. And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better. And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth. And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

The tithe was used in the old testament for the priest and the poor. everything else was done with offerings. even if tithing was still in effect you would not be able to use it on anything but the poor since we no longer have priests. We could not spend it on buildings, buses materials etc.

I truly do not understand how anyone who understands any kind of systematic theology could believe that we are to tithe. I know how strong this is but I believe that tithing for the Christian is false doctrine and damaging to the cause of Christ. It causes many people to be greedy and selfish and leads to legalism or at least leaps of faith. Jesus challenges us to a higher standard than tithing. Please understand I believe that we are to give joyfully and freely as the spirit leads, everything we have is his. I once heard Tony Compolo say we need to change the words to the old hymn I surrender all to, I surrender one tenth one tenth to him I freely give.

Please for give the intensity but I believe this is very important, and you have to love me anyway.

Jesus is the answer
Scott

OK, I have a few questions...lol. and let me say Scott...I never mind passion...I am guilty of it on many occassions! I get the sense that we are almost calling the Law evil...If God made it, wasn't it good? Even though it has served it's purpose to show us that we are hopeless in our own rightousness...aren't many of it's precepts and principles still good? Still beneficial to live by? Don't we live by many self imposed legalisms? Setting an alarm clock to make sure we pray at the same time every day. Making sure we say the same prayer before every meal...attending church services on the same time and same day every week....reading the bible through in a year.....making sure we dress a certain way to go to church...only listening to certain music....only worshiping certain ways...how are any of these self imposed "laws" any different than someone following the principle of the tithe?

Also, if the teaching of the tithe is a curse....why do we see the churches that teach it giving more and accomplishing more than the churches that don't? If it is freeing people to give even more, then why aren't those churches exploding with resource to help the poor etc.? It seems to me, and this isn't scientific just observation, that those churches that tithe and teach tithing seem to have more abundance then those that don't teach it? Are we really seeing those churches that don't teach tithing exploding in generousity? Or is it a clever excuse to give less or even worse.....a cover for rebellion....in essence saying "no one and no thing is going to tell me what to do"?

And lastly, what about the scripture that I posted. Isn't this an example of Paul directing the church to take a regular offering for the workers of the church? So even if you don't believe tithing is beneficial, isn't it at least biblical to direct people to give regular? Since he said at the first day of the week every week?

Let me tell you my personal story....I wasn't tithing years ago. We were struggling greatly. I didn't make much money and had every excuse not to give. If I ever gave, it was only out of what I had left, never out of what I had received first. I felt the Lord challenge me to give a percentage of my income. I started at 2%. The first time I gave it, after balancing my check book after bills etc., the amount I had left was the same about I had given. The next month I gave 5%.....guess what, the amount I had given is what I had left. I gave 10%....I had 10% left. This made my heart come alive and see that God was working in my situation and was willing to teach me principles about giving. I have had times of relapse since...and every time our finiances have fallen apart. I have gone through times of plenty and times of want...but I've always been taken care of and we have always given. So, I guess where I am right now is....I don't believe from my expereince and what I read in scripture that tithing is required.....in fact much more then that is required. LIke the article i posted.....the new commandments are much harder to live by then the old ones....Love God with all your Heart...love your neighbor as yourself...You think that's easy? If anything God gave us a much more difficult commands in the new testament then in the old. I do believe it's biblical to teach that you should give regurlarly.....and I have no problem if someone wants to put a percentage on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4oOkezxKuI

Here is a link to Mark Driscoll teaching on the subject.... as usual, I think he does a nice job communicating the heart of the matter! Good stuff!

Skipp,

You are right; the law is not evil we are evil.

Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

Romans 7:6 "But now we are discharged from the Law and have terminated all intercourse with it, having died to what once restrained and held us captive. So now we serve not under [obedience to] the old code of written regulations, but [under obedience to the promptings] of the Spirit in newness [of life]. What then do we conclude? Is the Law identical with sin? Certainly not! Nevertheless, if it had not been for the Law, I should not have recognized sin or have known its meaning. [For instance] I would not have known about covetousness [would have had no consciousness of sin or sense of guilt] if the Law had not [repeatedly] said, You shall not covet and have an evil desire [for one thing and another]. But sin, finding opportunity in the commandment [to express itself], got a hold on me and aroused and stimulated all kinds of forbidden desires (lust, covetousness). For without the Law sin is dead [the sense of it is inactive and a lifeless thing]. Once I was alive, but quite apart from and unconscious of the Law. But when the commandment came, sin lived again and I died (was sentenced by the Law to death). And the very legal ordinance which was designed and intended to bring life actually proved [to mean to me] death."

The Law describes God: He loves us as himself, He is not a liar, He is not a murderer, He is not a thief...when we try to obey the Law we are trying to be like God in our own power...which is exactly what Satan did. The problem is that it never works because we don't have what it takes because we are not God HE IS! Satan told us "you shall not surely die"; the Law tells us the truth and sentences us to death...the Law is God warning us because He loves us and doesn't want us to die!

Jesus strengthened the Law in a way (sermon on the mount/beattitudes), because although the Law does describe God it is a very basic description, Jesus in effect said: Not only is God not a murderer He doesn't even think about killing someone for His own gain or to satisfy an impulsive feeling of rage etc., etc. Jesus did this because the Pharisees took great pride in how well they kept the law. Outwardly, they looked pretty righteous, they tithed, they sacrificed, they didn't lie, murder, cheat or steal, but on the inside (the part God could see) they failed miserably: They didn't love God with all their heart, they didn't love their neighbor; in their hearts they held murder, adultery, malice and covetousness. On top of all this they piled one GIGANTIC lie "look at us we act just like God", that is why Jesus condemned the Pharisees ahead of the tax collectors and harlots because at least they were open and honest about their sin!

Trying to keep the Law is us trying to act like God. The good news of the gospel is God restored back in us, acting through us.

Jesus is the only man that has ever fulfilled the Law.

Mathew 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Jesus is the only one able to live the Christian life but How do we grab hold of the life of Jesus so that we don't die? We die and share His life!

Mathew 16:24 "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, if any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it."

Galatians 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the Law, then Christ is dead in vain."

The righteousness Jesus talks about in Mathew 5:17 only He can achieve in us and if we have faith in him he will do it because He never fails.

Greg

So why is it that we would keep some things of the law and not be under it....and then other things like tithing and be under it?

Also, I've heard it taught that the principle of tithing pre-dates the law by a few hundered years?

Skipp,

I know what you mean, it seems like a contradiction i.e. "it is wrong to keep the law but when you are a christian you will do the law" or something like that.

To understand it you have to look at it through the lens of the cross. God told the Israelites if they kept the law He would give them eternal life. When you keep the law where is your focus? Your focus is on You keeping the law.

Now look at it through the lens of the cross:

I think we can agree that as Christians we accept Christ's death as our own. So imagine that you are with Jesus four days after He was crucified. Now go and keep the Law. What you will find is that it is impossible to do anything let alone keep the Law. Why? Because four days after you were both nailed to a cross He is the only one alive! So instead, you do the only thing you can: you rely on Him to do everything for you. This is exactly what Jesus the man did for 33 years on earth, he relied on his Father, always, without stopping.

John 5:19 "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."

Mark 10:18 "And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."

Our relationship with Jesus is the same as His relationship with His Father.

John 15:5 "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."

If you are born again what do you become? A baby. What kind of authority does a baby have? None, a baby can't do anything, he relies on his father and mother for everything! This is what it means to die (accept Christ's death as your own), you don't cease to exist, the part of you God made: body, mind, personality, emotions and will are still there but you have no authority and no life apart from the life of Jesus that you share with Him. That is what Paul was saying in Galatians 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ..." when you rely on Him like this you will start to notice God behaving through you, He will fulfill the law through you.

By itself it is not necessarily wrong to give 10% of your earnings to a church...but what is your purpose? It isn't necessarily wrong to not eat pork or to eat meat sacrificed to idols but what is in your heart? That is strictly between you and God I can't read your heart nor can
any other man. That is why I become angry when a pastor (or any other man) pretends to know God's will for me in the intimate day-by-day walk with Jesus. Things like "you should give at least 10%" or "you should read your bible early in the morning", "you have to give your tithe to a church", "you should go to church 3 times a week", "you need to volunteer in the church", "you need to go out and witness to others". Really? None of these things are necessarily bad in themselves, but how would he know? When you peel away the layers these people are acting no different than the pope of Rome.

As a christian, if you are walking on the other side of the cross where you are dead the only thing that will influence your will is Jesus; so your will is His will and His will is your will. That is why Paul in the scripture you referenced wanted the people to give before he got there so they would not be influenced by him but only by the Holy spirit. I don't know about you, but when the collection plate is passed around and I don't throw a $20 in I feel like everyone is staring at me!

To answer your last question, yes, titheing is mentioned in Genesis when Abraham tithed to Melchizadek. I am pretty sure this is the first reference to titheing. Also, Abel made a blood sacrifice in Genesis long before it was written in the Law. However, we know that God told Abel to sacrifice because in Hebrews in says that "by faith Abel brought a better sacrifice" and "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God". Skipp, this has been a good discussion, I have learned a lot and I hope you have too!

Greg